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    Author Topic: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?  (Read 37700 times)

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    OfflineRon

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #40 on: June 25, 2006, 07:39:04 AM »
    Oh you're going to hell, it's a sin to engage in homosexuality when you're dreaming. Story Judas, Article 4, section 5, paragraph b, sub paragraph 2a. Thou Shalt Not Have Homosexuality when thy art Dreaming.

    lol
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    OfflinePaulT

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #41 on: June 25, 2006, 08:03:48 AM »
    Quote
    So if I'm single, yet have dreams every night about raping men and sucking on their huge peniss, I'm not a homosexual?
    Quote

    Not if you don't act on it.

    I believe we have free will and can be whatever we want to be.
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    OfflineGot_Shine

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #42 on: June 26, 2006, 08:01:33 PM »
    The bible also said that jesus never got married, or even had a shag. Must have been gay if you ask me. So there you go, the biggest religious icon on the world........... and he was gay. Probably the same for the prophet mohammed as well.

    religion=hypocracy

    fact

    You have no right in any way to talk about any prophet in that manner. The bible was written three hundred years after the death of jesus. And to what you said about the prophet muhamed how dare you talk about somthing which you have no knowledge of.
    I'm pretty sure he has the right to display his opinion about a religious figure, however controversial it is.
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    Offlinedaycrawler

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #43 on: June 27, 2006, 12:39:11 AM »
    He has his opinion. No need to say if his opinion is wrong.

    Offlinebriatwork

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #44 on: June 27, 2006, 01:33:51 AM »
    Well well well Mujah your true colors are showing at last. DO NOT try to dictate to me what I can and can't say about your religion. You see unlike you I have not been indoctrinated from birth, I have been allowed choice and free will. Unlike you I have read extensively on the worlds religions and know an awful lot about your religion, and many other religions of the world. If I wish to talk in any way about any prophet, I will. If I wish to say any prophet was gay, was a con man, thief, murderer or whatever, then I will. You really don't know what happened in the time of the prohet Mohammed, you only summise from what you have been told. Try reading some books that have been written outside of your religion, you WILL learn something. You may also learn love and understanding, or you could keep your mind firmly closed, wonder which it will be.

    Offlinephilodespotos

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #45 on: June 27, 2006, 06:42:57 AM »
    The way this question was posed has been making me laugh for days, but I do my damnedest to avoid commenting, as talking to people with no regard for reality tends to be exasperating. It's either genetic or a disease? Come the hell on.

    Anyhow, my newspaper perusals for today have made it necessary to sprinkle some logic into this conversation.

    While it's marvelously humourous to have a number of homophobic little boys ranting about choices and queers and such related nonsense, some people expect you to back your statements up. "Because I say so" does not suffice.

    The evidence of a genetic source of at least a disposition to homosexuality is rapidly accumulating.

    For example, the AP is running a story today about a study from Anthony Bogaert that demonstrates that men with older brothers who are gay are more likely to be so themselves. The study has been released in the PNAS, which is not only peer-reviewed, it's well established with marvelously strong impact data. The AP reports Marc Breedlove of Michigan State University as saying the study "absolutely confirms a physical basis." The AP story is available at http://hosted.ap.org/specials/bluepage.html_ORIENTATION?SITE=PAREA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT and, if someone asks, I'll try and get an electronic version of the study. But I've got a sneaking suspicion that "science" and "facts" have little to do with the arguments here. A quick grep at pubmed turns up abstracts of at least a handful of other recent studies which are beginning to show the same thing, especially in research on maternal twins.

    The rationale of most of the people who seem to be arguing for homosexuality being a matter of choice is painfully straightforward and pitiful:

    "I disagree with people being gay. Therefore, it is their fault."

    You've gotta do better than that, boys.


    Posted at: June 27, 2006, 07:32:44 am
    I'm pretty sure he has the right to display his opinion about a religious figure, however controversial it is.
    That opinion wasn't controversial, it was just obnoxiously ignorant.

    Muhammad is extremely well documented as having been married.

    Just as I stated in my previous post, people shouldn't just make shit up when they have absolutely nothing behind their claims.
    Posted at: June 27, 2006, 07:39:40 am
    You really don't know what happened in the time of the prohet Mohammed, you only summise from what you have been told. Try reading some books that have been written outside of your religion, you WILL learn something.
    And I might suggest that you do the same. As, by all appearances, you either haven't, or you utterly failed to understand anything they said. No one, and I do mean no one, debates the idea that Muhammad was married. I would pay good money to find a _single_ serious scholar who says that. We might as well claim that Cleopatra is a figment of our imagination, or that "maybe there were no people in China two thousand years ago." Do we have first-hand knowledge? No. Do we have an extreme preponderance of evidence? Quite.

    Sigh, then again, MujaheD claimed the bible was written "300 years" after the death of Jesus, which is horribly wrong.

    Come on people: DO AT LEAST SOME SMALL AMOUNT OF FACT CHECKING BEFORE YOU MAKE ASSES OF YOURSELVES. It's not that difficult.
    « Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 06:46:17 AM by philodespotos »

    OfflineRadeon

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #46 on: June 27, 2006, 06:57:23 AM »
    Well well well Mujah your true colors are showing at last. DO NOT try to dictate to me what I can and can't say about your religion. You see unlike you I have not been indoctrinated from birth, I have been allowed choice and free will. Unlike you I have read extensively on the worlds religions and know an awful lot about your religion, and many other religions of the world. If I wish to talk in any way about any prophet, I will. If I wish to say any prophet was gay, was a con man, thief, murderer or whatever, then I will. You really don't know what happened in the time of the prohet Mohammed, you only summise from what you have been told. Try reading some books that have been written outside of your religion, you WILL learn something. You may also learn love and understanding, or you could keep your mind firmly closed, wonder which it will be.

    Do you honestly think im stupid? dont you think i have studied my religion inside out. I have read text written by people outside the religion and honestly im not suprised it is total and complete bullshit (the attempts i have seen to attack the prophet and others).  You are being prejiduce suggesting that I am just another victim of "monkey see, monkey do".  I obviously took what my parents have tought me about my religion and studied it carefully. I can believe what you want, you can say what you want. What you did say however, you shouldnt be allowed to say, you just called the prophets gay with no evidence what so ever, you just simply said they are all probably gay too. And what do you mean by true colors? You racist prick, it does not matter what color or race i am, it's what's in my head that counts. If you dont like my religion then dont take it, that doesnt give you the right to make up complete bullshit about prophets being gay. Call that an opinion but honestly you either did not even think about it or your plain stupid. Do what ever you like but the next time you talk about my religion talk about it truthfully. And again for the people's writings outside the religion, who do you think would know more about islam? muslims or non-muslims? It's as simple as that get it through your head, save your self searching for the most insulting article on islam because it will only reveal the true stupid person  you are.
    YOLO #swag

    Offline1337h4x

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #47 on: June 27, 2006, 10:16:36 AM »
    I think you're born with it, just like how you're born mental.

    Like when you have 2 of the same gene ( or something like that ) you becmoe a little mental.

    Maybe if you have 2 of some kind of hormone gene, you might become "attracted to you're sex".
    Oh please fudge off.

    And welcome to the community.

    OfflinePaulT

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #48 on: June 27, 2006, 10:25:08 AM »
    Quote
    The rationale of most of the people who seem to be arguing for homosexuality being a matter of choice is painfully straightforward and pitiful:

    "I disagree with people being gay. Therefore, it is their fault."

    You've gotta do better than that, boys.


    It's a matter of logic, for me at least. We have free will to have sex with whoever we like. It's a choice to engage in homosexual behaviors.

    Saying homosexuality is not a choice is like saying "I never chose to like macs better than  PCs, I was just born that way". Every choice we make in our lives is a result of all of the experience and knowledge we have gained throughout our lives, and everything we do under our free will is a result of a choice we personally have made.

    Offlinebriatwork

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #49 on: June 27, 2006, 10:28:13 AM »
    LOL.
    I put the comment in about Mohammed just to draw Mujah in, why, because I find his fanatical ranting hilarious. LOL. Couple of points here though:

    1) Just because a person is married does not mean they are not gay. There are thousands of gay people in 'straight' marraiges all over the world.

    2) What if Mohammed was gay. SO WHAT. Does it matter, NO.

    3) True colors has nothing to do with race you foolish boy. I'm not bothered what race/color/religion you are, I'll always find you entertaining.

    4) I live in a free world where I can say what I like. I don't need evidence to back up any comments on religion, you see religion is based on faith not evidence. If evidence were a requirement for religion then the latter would not exist.

    5) Islam is a fascinating religion. Some of my happiest memories are from my student days staying up late debating with some of my muslim friends from around the world. Happy days.

    Good will to you Mujah.

    Offlinephilodespotos

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #50 on: June 27, 2006, 10:35:49 AM »
    One big argument in favor of homosexuality is that it is not a choice, but in fact a gene that makes you attracted to your own sex, this is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard, because as far as I know, 2 men having "sex" cannot have children to pass a gene on to, and 2 women having "sex" cannot have children to pass a gene on to.  If this so called "gay gene" ever existed it would have died out centuries upon centuries ago.  That being said, its only logical to assume that "being gay" is a CHOICE.

    any other arguements I can easily squash out for you guys? :)
    Your own.

    Either you didn't pay attention in 6th grade science class, or you're choosing to ignore it.

    Recessive genes need not be passed down through two gay people; it's just as likely, if not more so, that were a gene to exist (which is not necessarily the argument for being innately gay, mind you, it's just what you've decided to arbitrarily reduce it to), that a large number of people were carriers of it. Given the right mating-pair, the proper combination ensues, and you've got a homosexual child. Moreover, this could easily be complicated were multiple genes involved -- and thus, you have the apparent rarity of homosexuality.

    Have you never seen two blonde parents give birth to a child with dark black hair? Because the rest of the world has. That, of course, was an arbitrary example; if someone responds with, "But blonde is the recessive gene!" I will simply laugh at you.

    And as I stated before, genes are not the only possible source of this. Irregular or complicated prenatal conditions could just as well be the cause.

    You are oversimplifying the matter, and then ignoring what is fairly basic science to fit the conclusion you wished to reach from the outset. Distorting whatever it might take to confirm your own bias has nothing to do with rationality. That's not "squashing" an argument, it's charlatanism.
    Posted at: June 27, 2006, 11:32:05 am
    It's a matter of logic, for me at least. We have free will to have sex with whoever we like. It's a choice to engage in homosexual behaviors.

    Saying homosexuality is not a choice is like saying "I never chose to like macs better than  PCs, I was just born that way". Every choice we make in our lives is a result of all of the experience and knowledge we have gained throughout our lives, and everything we do under our free will is a result of a choice we personally have made.
    This is just a reductio ad absurdum.

    Does this make people who are heterosexuals (which I guess is everyone in your view) (is this a default state? is heterosexuality also "only" a choice?), but abstain from sex, completely asexual?

    At a behavioral level, sure. The question remains: are they primarily attracted to their own sex, or the other? Little bit of both, maybe? No one at all? Homosexuality involves more than just whom you make sweet monkey love to, as numerous gender studies authors have repeatedly pointed out.

    Edit: I should qualify this. I understand your position, I just feel that you've stopped short of making any real analysis of the question. How are you going to quantify behavior here, for example? Does any behavior which begins to approach a display of attraction to the opposite sex qualify you immediately for either homo- or bisexuality? If a man is attracted primarily to masculine ladies, and never vaginally penetrates a woman, but subsists entirely on oral and anal sex, can he still be called heterosexual? Is there an indiscriminate sexuality for those who have sex with whomever happens to be handy? If a person masturbates while thinking of horses, but never practices beastiality, is he a beastialist? I just can't see how to answer these questions adequately if you never progress beyond the level of behavior.

    You can not eliminate desire from the equation, or the question becomes sophistry and little more.
    « Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 10:54:30 AM by philodespotos »

    OfflineKryptizzler

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #51 on: June 27, 2006, 10:39:01 AM »
    I haven't really read all these posts but heres my opinion. I think it's stupid to think that you could be born with a 'homosexual' gene. However, your surroundings as a child/teen will affect your sexuality. Also, it's kinda like saying 'you like computers', you're born with it. No, it's what you've been exposed to and also what you haven't been exposed to.
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    OfflinePaulT

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #52 on: June 27, 2006, 10:52:41 AM »
    Quote
    Does this make people who are heterosexuals (which I guess is everyone in your view), but abstain from sex, completely asexual?


    Well, no. They still have the ability to reproduce and I'm assuming they still have the urge to.

    Quote
    At a behavioral level, sure. The question remains: are they primarily attracted to their own sex, or the other? Little bit of both, maybe? Homosexuality is not merely a question of action, as numerous gender studies authors have repeatedly pointed out.

    Who (and what for that matter) we find attractive is a result of choice, just in a more complicated way than behavior is a result of choice. What people look for in a potential mate (physical attractives, cleverness, financial security, etc..) are things they have decided are attractive based upon their needs and lifestyle choices. Just because some choices are not obvious, doesn't mean they aren't choices.

    In my opinion it boils down to: are people responsible for their behaviors? Shit man, I have the urge to do all kinds of crazy shit, and I never stop resisting the urge to do it. Does it make me crazy that I want to set things on fire, masturbate in public, etc? Well, not really. Homosexual lust doesn't make you gay.

    OfflineRon

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #53 on: June 27, 2006, 11:07:28 AM »
    One big argument in favor of homosexuality is that it is not a choice, but in fact a gene that makes you attracted to your own sex, this is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard, because as far as I know, 2 men having "sex" cannot have children to pass a gene on to, and 2 women having "sex" cannot have children to pass a gene on to.  If this so called "gay gene" ever existed it would have died out centuries upon centuries ago.  That being said, its only logical to assume that "being gay" is a CHOICE.

    any other arguements I can easily squash out for you guys? :)
    Your own.

    Either you didn't pay attention in 6th grade science class, or you're choosing to ignore it.

    Recessive genes need not be passed down through two gay people; it's just as likely, if not more so, that were a gene to exist (which is not necessarily the argument for being innately gay, mind you, it's just what you've decided to arbitrarily reduce it to), that a large number of people were carriers of it. Given the right mating-pair, the proper combination ensues, and you've got a homosexual child. Moreover, this could easily be complicated were multiple genes involved -- and thus, you have the apparent rarity of homosexuality.

    Have you never seen two blonde parents give birth to a child with dark black hair? Because the rest of the world has. That, of course, was an arbitrary example; if someone responds with, "But blonde is the recessive gene!" I will simply laugh at you.

    And as I stated before, genes are not the only possible source of this. Irregular or complicated prenatal conditions could just as well be the cause.

    You are oversimplifying the matter, and then ignoring what is fairly basic science to fit the conclusion you wished to reach from the outset. Distorting whatever it might take to confirm your own bias has nothing to do with rationality. That's not "squashing" an argument, it's charlatanism.
    Posted at: June 27, 2006, 11:32:05 am
    It's a matter of logic, for me at least. We have free will to have sex with whoever we like. It's a choice to engage in homosexual behaviors.

    Saying homosexuality is not a choice is like saying "I never chose to like macs better than  PCs, I was just born that way". Every choice we make in our lives is a result of all of the experience and knowledge we have gained throughout our lives, and everything we do under our free will is a result of a choice we personally have made.
    This is just a reductio ad absurdum.

    Does this make people who are heterosexuals (which I guess is everyone in your view) (is this a default state? is heterosexuality also "only" a choice?), but abstain from sex, completely asexual?

    At a behavioral level, sure. The question remains: are they primarily attracted to their own sex, or the other? Little bit of both, maybe? No one at all? Homosexuality involves more than just whom you make sweet monkey love to, as numerous gender studies authors have repeatedly pointed out.

    Edit: I should qualify this. I understand your position, I just feel that you've stopped short of making any real analysis of the question. How are you going to quantify behavior here, for example? Does any behavior which begins to approach a display of attraction to the opposite sex qualify you immediately for either homo- or bisexuality? If a man is attracted primarily to masculine ladies, and never vaginally penetrates a woman, but subsists entirely on oral and anal sex, can he still be called heterosexual? Is there an indiscriminate sexuality for those who have sex with whomever happens to be handy? If a person masturbates while thinking of horses, but never practices beastiality, is he a beastialist? I just can't see how to answer these questions adequately if you never progress beyond the level of behavior.

    You can not eliminate desire from the equation, or the question becomes sophistry and little more.
    Nice job man. I totally agree with you.

    Offlinedaycrawler

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #54 on: June 27, 2006, 02:39:42 PM »
    That brings up an intresting point. Are we born straight?

    OfflineAftermath

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #55 on: June 27, 2006, 03:54:05 PM »
    He means born straight v. born gay.

    OfflineGot_Shine

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #56 on: June 27, 2006, 05:32:30 PM »
    Quote
    The rationale of most of the people who seem to be arguing for homosexuality being a matter of choice is painfully straightforward and pitiful:

    "I disagree with people being gay. Therefore, it is their fault."

    You've gotta do better than that, boys.


    It's a matter of logic, for me at least. We have free will to have sex with whoever we like. It's a choice to engage in homosexual behaviors.

    Saying homosexuality is not a choice is like saying "I never chose to like macs better than  PCs, I was just born that way". Every choice we make in our lives is a result of all of the experience and knowledge we have gained throughout our lives, and everything we do under our free will is a result of a choice we personally have made.

    I understand exactly with what you're saying, but unlike a material thing, its not really a choice, straight people aren't attracted to their sex, so essentially they don't have a chance to like their own sex. I hope that makes sense, I'm just typing this out in a rush.[/s]

    It looks like philodespotos took care of that, and I have to congratulate him at that, his posts here have been amazing.  :)
    « Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 05:40:57 PM by Got_Shine »

    OfflineRadeon

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #57 on: June 27, 2006, 09:59:37 PM »
    Quote
    The rationale of most of the people who seem to be arguing for homosexuality being a matter of choice is painfully straightforward and pitiful:

    "I disagree with people being gay. Therefore, it is their fault."

    You've gotta do better than that, boys.


    It's a matter of logic, for me at least. We have free will to have sex with whoever we like. It's a choice to engage in homosexual behaviors.

    Saying homosexuality is not a choice is like saying "I never chose to like macs better than  PCs, I was just born that way". Every choice we make in our lives is a result of all of the experience and knowledge we have gained throughout our lives, and everything we do under our free will is a result of a choice we personally have made.

    I understand exactly with what you're saying, but unlike a material thing, its not really a choice, straight people aren't attracted to their sex, so essentially they don't have a chance to like their own sex. I hope that makes sense, I'm just typing this out in a rush.[/s]

    It looks like philodespotos took care of that, and I have to congratulate him at that, his posts here have been amazing.  :)

    No, its just that straight people are smart enough to understand that homosexuality is wrong. Well atleast some of us ;)
    « Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 10:01:47 PM by MujaheD »
    YOLO #swag

    OfflineGot_Shine

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #58 on: June 28, 2006, 12:36:07 AM »
    No, if you're actually attract enough to the same sex, you're either gay or bi. Theres no way around that. Its not wrong its just not possible if you're straight.

    OfflineRadeon

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    Re: Homosexuality. Born with it or Disease?
    « Reply #59 on: June 28, 2006, 12:51:21 AM »
    No, if you're actually attract enough to the same sex, you're either gay or bi. Theres no way around that. Its not wrong its just not possible if you're straight.

    In my opinion you are just confused, just like scar for example. you're wondering whether or not to enter color codes, they only way it will work is if you enter colors, same with sex. Only works one way, only meant to be used one way.
    YOLO #swag

     

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